The Salvagepunk Manifesto: Our Salvage from Absurdism

Further Recommended Reading: The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus (while I disagree with his suggestions on living, I find him to have a good summary of the nature of the absurd).

To have a worldview to accommodate the chaotic nature of existence (chaotic in the sense that it is far beyond any totalizing order we can construct on it), we are inspired by absurdism in its worldview. The following dialogue provides a summary of it and important considerations.

I: Alright, so I guess you know. So you know how we…So I guess in a sense, the idea, the absurd is that what we want from the universe isn’t…isn’t matched by what the universe provides for us. Like, for example, we want a sense of meaning, but the universe has no clear source of it. We want to know something but the universe, there’s no way to know something for certain, you know, and we want to relate to other people and things, but we can never know their subjective experience. There’s always a sense of isolation.

D: Yeah, okay.

I: And see what else

D: You gonna ask me questions, is that…?

I: What do you think?

D: Okay, give me something more specific to ask.

I: Okay, I mean, you ever, have you ever had an existential crisis?

D: You mean feeling like the world has no meaning and that sort of…

I: Yes.

D: I don’t think I have…I have certainly been very depressed. But I don’t think about the larger, like, meaning of life stuff. I guess I didn’t, I didn’t grow up with any kind of religion. And I don’t…I think my mom was so practical, you know?

I: Yeah.

D: And so I think that that’s the way I’ve always viewed the world, is in a kind of practical way.

I: Yeah. So if you, like, don’t, you don’t try to, like, if you don’t try to think about like, big theoretical things. The absurd doesn’t really bother you.

D: No, it’s just sort of the way it is, in a sense. It’s like, well, okay, what else you got for me? You know, it’s sort of like that, yeah, you just sort of…life throws things at you, and you deal with them. And then you go to the next thing.

I: Oh, another, another example, oh wait. Yeah. And then we keep doing more and more things, or the same things over and over again. And the only reason we do them is because we’re driven to do them, or they aid something we’re driven to do. There isn’t really any greater higher purpose out there that we’re doing it for. I mean, and then also, like, if we, I mean, if there was then…then what would we do if we ever achieved that?

D: Right, but I think there’s the striving.

I: Yeah, that’s right.

D: But it’s all a theoretical construct in your head.

I: Yeah.

D: But what people consider a good life, or life well lived, it’s subjective. And if it makes them feel good, great, or if it helps other people, that’s a nice thing, help society be better, you being nice to people and helping other people. And that’s really great.

I: Yeah. And then there’s another example of the absurd, I thought of. You know, it’s, we’re driven to want to live, but we’re also aware that we’re going to die someday. Now, there’s…all these are things that…so it’s not so much a difference between our desires, and what…and what the universe is, as between our desires and what we, well, okay, so it’s only like, when we try to think about the nature of the universe, or, like, we dissociate, and some…everything seems out of place, that’s another, I guess, another way that feeling can arise. But, yeah, when neither of those are happening, we’re just going about our lives. And then on the other hand, you’ve got, like, if you don’t seek a higher meaning, or something, if you just don’t care about something, then that’s not going to work if the universe doesn’t provide it.

D: I mean, to me that, the seeking meaning is creating a life that is worth getting up for in the morning and going forward. And, and whenever that meeting is, that you create.

I: Yeah, I’m not sure…yeah, I’m not sure I’ve gone to that point.

D: Mine varies, I mean, sometimes what gets me up in the morning, so I’m gonna have coffee. So you know, I mean, like,

I: yeah,

D: But, but the thing that you know, longer term, like, weaving, for instance, right? I’m kind of looking at saying, okay, I’m gonna retire at some point in time, but I’m gonna…need a creative outlet. I’m not really singing anymore. And it’s a way of connecting with my mom. But it’s, I like it. It’s sometimes…it really…I think it’s great, but it’s, you know, it’s a…there’s a consciousness to it, not completely conscious, but there’s a consciousness to the choice of doing it, right.

I: Yeah. Yeah, we do make decisions for our reasons.

D: Yeah.

I: I mean, it doesn’t serve any higher purpose.

D: Yeah. Yeah.

I:I mean, yeah. And we don’t really need a higher purpose. It’s just, it’s just, it’s just so many… So many worldviews have, that have been so ingrained in society, value the idea of a higher purpose, which you know,

D: That…isn’t that what makes society work is when you’re thinking about people and wanting to help people? That’s how it gives our society cohesion.

I: Well, sure, sure. I meant more like in the sense of, like, a grand, like a grand narrative, like either of serving God or the gods, or of a promethean quest for human perfection. That’s, that a lot of like civilised societies,

D: Don’t you think that we all have our kind of mini Promethean quests when you want to get really good at something and then keep working, working working, something you feel like you’re supposed to and you never reach that?

I: Yeah, obviously yeah.

D: But…but there is…there are many goals of…I think probably that’s a good example actually that I think that does exist. And we don’t reach it to the same heights Prometheus maybe did, we don’t reach perfection, but we strive to do as much as possible about a topic or to get as good at something as we can. And we continue to work on it. Ideally, because it gives you a goal, it gives you. Yeah, I mean, I guess that is the absurd idea. To me, it seems like we’re those goals, or we kind of give some order to the chaos in some direction? Yes. Right. Yeah. And that helps, that helps me, I need direction. Otherwise, I just kind of wander around eating Grape Nuts.

I: Yeah. Our goals and, and our goals and our passions. And, you know, which are our will and our passion, which are two motivating factors, albeit one that we feel we have more control over than the other.

D: Yeah. Yeah.

I: There’s also the…ever heard of depressive realism? It’s basically the idea that people who suffer from depression have a more accurate worldview of how much the world sucks. And people who don’t suffer from it are…that, you know, we need to, we need to either delude ourselves or not think about, think about how much awful stuff there is in order to have…in order to be fulfilled.

D: And here’s the question, is it really more awful stuff than good stuff? Or do we just concentrate on the awful stuff? I mean, there’s a lot of good stuff in the world, there’s a really nice rain, it feels lovely watching the sunset, or the sunrise, a piece of music, a really nice cup of coffee. There’s so many things during the day, they may not be huge things, but suddenly things are gonna be really good about life. And, and how many horrible things do I experience in a day? Personally, not that many.

I: You’re lucky. You’re a relatively lucky person.

D: Right. But, and you know, there are people who suffer an enormous amount, but I don’t think it’s the majority. So yes, there’s horrible things in the world. They’re also really good things that are…so what I’m saying…depressive realism, it’s like, it’s just one way of looking.

I: Yeah.

D: And yeah, you know, I mean, obviously, nobody likes aPollyanna, either. But, but that sort of thing. Both, both exist, good and bad. Right. And if we only focus on those depressing, horrible, awful things, we miss all this other stuff that actually helps us keep going. So we can actually do something about that stuff. Maybe. But I don’t know. Yeah, that’s my theory for today. I think sometimes it takes an enormous amount of will to just stop and pay attention to the small things.

I: Yeah, I have a hard time doing that.

D: Remember when we used to walk to school, and I would say, “Hey, look at that tree” cause you were totally caught in your head. And it was beautiful. And you stop and you look at it and go, “Wow, that really is beautiful.” Right? You hadn’t seen it.

I: Yeah, I mean, that’s one thing, you know, if you can find the beauty in the totality of existence, that’s…

D: More in the individual particulars of existence. I find absolutes and theoreticals and stuff hard to hang my hat on.

I: Yeah

D: You know, I needed something that I can feel and touch and see and sense for me to enjoy. That to me is…I mean, that’s not true. There are intangible things like being with somebody I love. Right? That fills me with happiness, that’s providing. But, you know, like being around you and having this conversation is wonderful. I love it. So that makes me happy. I guess that’s the kind of intangible, but you know, it’s a particular thing. Yeah. To me, it’s a particular that makes you happy. Whereas I think the depressive stuff can be general. Maybe, maybe for some people that aren’t that happy can be general.

I: I don’t know, I guess, I was thinking well, you know, there’s the the idea of life affirming, where like, it’s basically, or amor fati, which basically like, where you take a single, as in a single, for a single moment, you, you affirm all of life is worth it for that moment.

D: Where’s it from?

I: From Nietzsche.

D: Yeah. I like that idea. ou have to be able to take that moment and really focus

I: Yeah,

D: Out of your head and onto that thing. Yeah, right. Yeah. I like that. Yeah.

I: I mean, I do think that there’s probably a thing that like, thinking too much about the big picture kind of takes its toll on us.

D: I think it can, yeah.

I: Yeah. You know, HP Lovecraft wrote in the Call of Cthulhu, that people that believe that…that eventually humanity would learn too much for its own good, and either go mad or retreat into a new dark age. And I don’t think…That’s obviously somewhat pessimistic. But I do think that there’s the idea of, of like, when people…when you think into places where…think yourself into rather dark places… either, either…embrace, either accept it and go kind of loopy from it all, or you just try to distract yourself from it.

D: And I think you need to find your way out.

I: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You need to find your way out. Yeah.

D: And I think the only way out is, I repeat myself, the particular, And that sort of particular is the sensory kind of looking at the observing the world around you and sensing the world around you, and finding those small things that can give you joy that can, that can, it’s hard. It’s hard sometimes

I: I disagree, but in reverse.

[Laughter]

D: Yeah, I mean, like, to me, I guess that’s sort of what meditation is supposed to do, is to, is to just be in the moment of being surrounded and sense that sensory stuff, I have such a hard time slowing my mind. And I resist it, and I don’t want to do it and get angry. But I do have these glimpses of just like the feeling of mist on your face after a really hot day. And it’s like pouring rain or misting or something that cool breeze, or,

I: Yeah, it’s kind of funny, I just realized that, I often think both of the need to open your mind, like, I value like, weird, and, like weird art, to psychedelic experiences, not necessarily psychedelic drugs, but more in the broader sense, as ways to open your mind to potential new paradigms, while also believing in the need to, in the need to distract yourself from stuff…from stuff that does, you no good to think about. And this is done by focusing on practical matters. So it’s an interesting, you know, some might say say dialectics, some might say contradiction.

D: Yeah,

I: More of a dialectic

D: Yeah, the idea of two things, I mean, things, the world can have bad in it and good in it at the same time, right?

I: Yeah

D: The world is neither inherently bad or inherently good. It is.

I: Yeah.

D: And it is filled with good and bad things. And I guess it’s, it’s our, how we choose to experience them and how we choose to, and there’ll will be times you go more into that dark spot. But then if you can remember that there’s all those positives to find again,

I: I mean, it’s interesting, like, how much of I mean, obviously, like, people living in destitution, or chronic pain are going to be less happy than people who are…who aren’t but like that depends both, both on how much you perceive others relative to you to be, those like you to be doing relative to you. And also, like, just how depressed or

D: Just had this fear that I have forgotten something tonight, see, my mind just got distracted for a second.

I: Or just like, if you’re like, depressed, that’s…that’s gonna give you…make you obviously less happy regardless of how you’re doing materially,

D: right.

I: Often, like a, like a happy go lucky, like a happy go lucky poor person will probably still be happier than a depressed rich person, despite the depressed rich person having more, external factors seemingly conducive to happiness.

D: Money can’t buy you happiness.

I: Well, having enough money to survive can get you happiness,

D: Having enough money to survive, but that’s it, it’s a lot less than what our society convinces us that we need, right, you don’t need new things, you don’t need to go out to eat all the time. You don’t need to have a big house, you don’t need to have a fancy car, you need to be able to get around and do your work and have enough food and educate your family and, and have have vacation times in some form or another. But they say, I mean, I would argue for me, like going out to eat, I feel so guilty about spending the money, so I don’t enjoy it. I look at how much money oh my god, I can make that for a twentieth of the cost. And so to me that trade off is different, right?

I: I’m, I’m trying to like wean off of spending money. And

D: Does it make you feel better to spend the money? Or worse to spend the money? Or both?

I: Well, both, it goes, well, it feels worse to spend the money, better to, like, get the food.

D: But I guess it’s a differential. Does it make you feel good enough to make it worth the money?

I: Yeah, the money is a whole thing.

D: And how often something

I: That’s the whole thing, a pleasure-pain, something that’s pleasurable for one part of your, your mind is painful for another part, right?

D: But then there’s like the going out thing, it’s like, okay, so if you go once a week, you still get that experience, but the guilt is lowered? Because, you know, I didn’t go out those other six days. I don’t have to feel that guilt anymore. If you play games with yourself in those things. Yeah, that’s not really relevant to this conversation. I was just using going out as example of what doesn’t make me happy.

I: Yeah. So like, No, there’s nothing that certainly is. So you know, I don’t believe in free.

D: Well, yes.

I: So like, you know, then only I believe that

D :I disagree with you on that

I: That ultimately what…whether….how happy you are is determined both by…is determined both by…by acombination of external circumstances and inherent factors. There’s a view but that at the same time, if you…if you…time, if you don’t, if you don’t try to act as if, as if you had the choice on it, you’re, you’re not going to be happy.

D: Right, but I mean, there is a choice. I never understood how you justify the fact that there are two choices, or more choices. So if you have no free will how do you explain the several different choices that you could make?

I: Well, I would explain it by the fact that, like I said, different parts of your brain have different, of your mind have different motivations and drives. You know, like,

D: We pick one of those things right for the final choice.

I: Yeah,

D: So if that’s not free will, what is that? Is it preordained? I mean, it’s just our genetics and our upbringing we have no,

I: I would say that, It is the product of circumstance.

D: I still don’t I mean, if you had two things that were kind of like, why did you go to University of Vermont over I mean, Oberlin

I: Well, because University of Vermont had a scholarship programme that that was dependent on my grade, and I was worried that would be too stressful.

D: But you could have chosen, you could have said, “You know what, I think I’m gonna be okay. And I’m gonna do it anyway.” You could have chosen that. But you’re saying because of your makeup and your upbringing and everything else, that that was never a possibility. Maybe I’m misunderstanding, I’m sorry.

I: I’m saying that, well, I don’t know to what extent things happen predeterminately and to what extent things happen randomly. But I wouldn’t call either free will. I don’t see how something could happen neither predeterminately or randomly.

D: That wasn’t random, it was thoughtful.

I: Yes, yes. So I came to a conclusion. So my mind did its thing and came to a conclusion, you know, like, so using your mind?

D: Oh, so you’re thinking of the mind as this sort of independent organism, but not you? It’s your mind.

I: No, That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying is, I’m saying is….the mind is dependent on the same thing as….the mind is dependent on the same factors as everything else. It’s a very complex, very complex. Yes. But

D: I mean, we have this discussion periodically, like, it’s never quite, I don’t think I’m gonna get it

I: Okay.

D: I just don’t think

I: Let’s, let’s say there was, let’s say there was a superintelligence. This…now this intelligence, knew of every neuron and…in a person’s mind, every…everything in every external factor they interacted with. And like, yeah, like everything about the person’s mind and history. What I’m saying is such a hypothetical superintelligence could, obviously onlyif it weren’t interfering itself, could predict, could predict what…could predict fully accurately what that mind would do in the future. And see, the mind is just another physical, and just, all the physical processes that caused that mind to do that thing,

D: Yeah, that’s a good explanation. It’s kind of depressing, though.

I: Well, I mean,

D: I like the idea that I have free will, it makes me feel more in control.

I: Well, yeah,

D; That’s…so that may be an illusion. But yeah,

I: Well, there’s another thing we have to…

D: I like my illusion.

I: [Unintelligible] Like, yeah. And then there’s, I mean, there’s the, obviously that…obviously, like, that only gets into play, like, once you start thinking about it in the first place, like, obviously, like, I mean, like, most animals, and probably a lot of people, you know, especially like kids, don’t think about whether they’re doing things freely, they just do what they’re driven to do. And the way I see it is that we do what we’re driven to do, and act based on what we value and want. And the fact that we’re driven to do it is reason enough.

D: I guess, the theory of that scares me a little bit, because there’s a feeling of, well, I couldn’t help it. I had to do it, or like, it seems to allow for a, for horrible behaviour.

I: Well, I would say that

D: Killing people and stealing things and, and because we’re like, “I couldn’t help it, this is the way I’m wired”, right?

I: Well, I mean, you know, it actually reminds me of a story [my lover] told me, you know, [my lover] studies clinical psychology, told me a story of one person who, uh, of one guy who, who kept calling his doctor because he was feeling an urge to kill, and then eventually, he did kill his, kill his family. And it turned out that what happened was that there was a tumour pressing against his amygdala and giving him the uncontrollable urge to kill.

D: Oh God, how horrible.

I: And this was actually,

D: His doctor didn’t do anything.

I: I guess, or at least not on time. But, like, that’s another thing, like how, that’s another thing when you realise how everything we perceive is this physical, like, that means that physical alterations to our brain can, I mean, just look at all the different weird stuff that happens to different people with brain damage.

D: Right. Or chemicals.

I: Yeah.

D: During adolescence what happens with this whoosh of hormones. You

I: Yeah

D: I mean, it is all chemical. You know, I was talking about this with an ethnomusicologist in Michigan. Her research was, it was on trance and so a lot of her work was in neuropsychology, or, no, neurobiology, where she talks about what happens to the body in trance. It, the chemical reactions and the physical stuff.

I: Actually, I remember hearing in a lecture by, I think, Michio Kaku about how, like, there’s like a machine that could, that, that could, that could affect the brain to cause essentially the parts of the brain that activate when there’s a religious experience when you’re having, like a religious, and then like, how like, and well, the same thing is happening, like, I remember, like, him saying, like, atheists were saying that, or that to atheists that evidence would be, “see, it’s all just stuff in the brain, it’s not religion,” and religious people will let, will be, “well, no, that’s the part, part of the brain that activates when, when, when, like God, or whatever is talking to you,”

D: Whereas, really, they’re both true. So that’s just in your brain, but that’s religion.

I: Yeah.

D: Religion is faith, religion, that’s all in your brain, eve, even though there’s theoretical sense. It’s still in your brain, right? It’s physically…but that’s the whole concept of religion

I: It is fascinating. Like, I do wonder, like, if I had like, a near death experience that corresponded with a major religion, even if, even if, even if I, if I do believe that most near death experiences are probably just hallucinations of a dying brain. But if I actually experienced that, something like that, would I then feel strongly enough to end up converting to that religion anyway?

D: Yeah. I mean, I know, I certainly know people, scientists who believe in God. Yeah. And they know, they don’t believe you know, that everything in the Bible is real, but they believe in God and the spiritual piece of it. It’s amazing to me, it’s so fascinating.

I: No, I guess I thought sort of, in my view, I guess I see God as the entirety of existence. Yeah.

D: Is that, is that the

I: pantheism.

D: Yeah, so not,

I: Yeah.

D: Well, but not like, do you believe that God’s in inanimate objects as well?

I: Yeah. I mean, I think about this, I also believe that consciousness is to some extent a Universal property. That’s called panpsychism.

D: So how does that manifest itself? Like, we have the same thoughts, or do we have that their…our thoughts are all connected?

I: Well, I would say, well, obviously, everything is interconnected. But more like in a sense that, I would say subjective experiences is a universal of existence. I mean, I guess there’s something to me, there’s three options for, for, for it. One would be there’s only one subjective experience. So that’s, you know, solipsism. And, you know, that will be based, obviously, be me since you know, I’m the one experiencing this. Although, if I’m talking to you, and you’re experiencing this, that would obviously be you. But, you know, it doesn’t seem likely because I observe in other people very similar behaviour to my own and don’t see why they wouldn’t be conscious, and I would, so then two is that is that there are, like, discrete units of subjective experience, basically, a soul like, or, you know, or like, each brain has its own unit of experience. But the problem with that is that I don’t, there isn’t really a clear distinction, like, take anything that you define consciousness as, and there’s, like, isn’t a clear distinction as to what point consciousness is…to “this has it this doesn’t”

D: Okay.

I: And then the third thing would be that consciousness is, isn’t something in discrete units, and has more than one perspective, which would be that it’s a universal quality.

D: You lost me on that? Can you give me some…

I: Okay, okay. Okay. So nothing is…so you know, how…well you know, consciousness, like I said, I don’t think free will exists. So…can’t be that that’s the source of consciousness. And let’s say consciousness is, like, complex thoughts. Well, at what points do you define thought as complex? That’s way too vague. And then comp…and then consciousness is emotion. But if you lost the ability to feel emotion, you’d still have a subjective experience, probably. For that matter, if you lost the ability to have complex thoughts, you’d probably still have a subjective experience.

D: So wait a minute, though. But my question was, when you say it’s,

I: I’m getting there. Okay. So at that point, I think like, the only thing left would be consciousness is sensing and reacting to stimuli. But everything does that.

D: Yes. But it’s not a shared consciousness. That was my question.

I: Well, I mean, okay, well, so, I guess. But the things that I mean, for example, I think it’s obvious that shared collections of things can have a shared, can have a shared consciousness just because of the fact that you’re conscious, and, you know, you’re a collection, a collection of things.

D: Yeah.

I: And so. And so therefore, I say that, in a sense that every, every action and every reaction is to some extent, is in some even most basic way, a conscious one.

D: Still not understanding the shared piece of the collective.

I: Okay. Well, so you know how like, the human mind experiences itself as a single entity, albeit one with multiple facets, well usually as a single entity. There’s, like, people with dissociative identity disorder. But that’s something that emerges from the interactions of all the different neurons and other stuff. And point is, and then everything is a part of a complex network of interaction.

D: Yeah. But we’re held together by the physical stimuli and the experience that this body has had, right? And the next body over has had a different set of stimuli and a different set of

I: Yeah, but there’s like crosses between that stimuli. Like, for example, one, one sends a sound signal to the other. And then like, for example, it’s also like, you know, the will of the masses, that also,

D: To me, that’s somewhat theoretical, but I guess it’s when you’re with a lot of other people, you share a mind goal or a combined?

I: I mean, I guess what I say is that…guess what I’d say is consciousness is…I guess I would say that, I mean, like, you know, that, it’s not like the body is concrete, objectively concrete units, either. It’s just a more closely knit network of interacting stuff.

D: I feel like, maybe it feels like the logic is a little backwards here. It’s like, well, the body isn’t perfectly by itself. Therefore, we’re all together. Whereas I don’t see the argument for us having a collective conscience. I’m still not seeing that. Some interplay, sure. Some overlaps of shared experience, sure. But I’m not, I’m not seeing the argument for shared consciousness.

I: Well, let’s see. I guess one of the…sense of like, for example, here’s a thing, let’s say that you brought a bunch of people and connected their brains. Now, like, let’s say that at first, you were just having them, like, send one message a week to each other, once a week sending a message to all of them?

D: Yeah,

I: Telepathic technology that…like long distance electricity. Then you increase that. And eventually, you get to the point where they’re in constant…minds are in constant communication with each other. Now, at that point, and let’s say that you kept doing it for long enough, that they no longer thought of themselves as separate beings, but as a single hive mind. At what point would you say that they’re now a single mind?

D: I would think when they stopped disagreeing with each other,

I: Well, doesn’t your mind disagree with itself all the time?

D: I suppose that’s true. I don’t know. I think it would take a while because you still have the whole history that we don’t share. Everything prior to the beginning of that.

I: Or let’s say…

D: I mean, I do think that there’s some connection between consciousness I guess, I’m not saying I don’t, I don’t really think that we share one collective consciousness amongst ourselves. I think that…I think we can interact with each other. I think that there are certain shared, there’s certain commonalities, I guess, I’m not seeing

I: I think there’s like there’s, I mean, I’d say that, okay, so there’s, what I’d say is consciousness which, like, say, basically just subjective experience, which I will say is, which I think is, which I think is a universal quality. And then there’s, but just as, and then there’s

[D’s phone rings]

D: Sorry.

[Were we to have continued our conversation, I would have gone into differences between units of identity and subjective experience and how there can be experience without identity, or even brains without identity, and how some subjective experiences would be incomprehensible to our own, but still exist, and how our mind could be a collective of consciousnesses or a single consciousness and a large collective could act as a superorganism with an emergent shared consciousness different from the experiences associated with the identity of each “individual” within it]